Student loan forgiveness

[GermanSuplex]

I don't mind arguing some issues of this on the merits, but coming from a party that refuses to make the wealthy or big corporations pay the same tax rate as a working class person, its all hypocritical and a bit much for me to take seriously. "I paid my student loans and worked hard, why should MY tax dollars go to subsidize to someone's else's education?"

Well, why should my tax dollars go to subsidize some billionaire asshole or a company that makes billions?

If my tax dollars are going to subsidize something, I'd rather it be to help average Americans out of debt than to someone or some company that doesn't need it. Republicans always remind us that life isn't fair.

Like I said, I'm sympathetic to some of the pushback on this, there's absolutely legitimate arguments to be made. But I don't like being lectured to by the GOP - especially congressional republicans who haven't yet seen a tax handout to the wealthy they weren't in favor of.

 

[Joe]

You gotta love Tik Tok creators and folks on Twitter bringing out all the receipts of those mad about student loan forgiveness having their own PPP loans and other loans forgiven. LOL

It reminds me of all the conservatives in my area that are always screaming about freeloaders, but they were the first in line for free FEMA money because they didn't have flood insurance after Harvey. And they were mad it wasn't enough to fix their homes. They wanted MORE free money from the government. They wanted the entire amount to fix their homes up to pre flood conditions.

Don't ever let conservatives make you believe they don't take handouts. They are the first in line.

Conservatives, fuck all the way off.

 

[ronntaylor]

If there isn't a working class, who is going to do the work?

Seriously, a kid my daughter went to HS with spent half his day at the Tech Center, formerly known as trade school. When they all graduated, he walked out of school and into a $40K/yr welding job. Probably makes more than that now. But all these other kids were going into debt to get a degree and most likely will end up with a job that doesn't really require a degree in the first place. So after 4 years, he will be $160K to the positive vs how many are 10's of thousands to the negative and if they are lucky will start at $40K, but probably lower.

Too much emphasis is put on "college" as the only way to be successful. And it just isn't for everyone. I went to college with too many people who had no business there but went because they had been sold a lie. Sure if you are going into STEM or other field that requires and education, then yes. But to get a degree just because is not a great idea.

As for this being a good idea, while many of you live in areas where this is supported, not a single person I have spoken to since yesterday does. Many are pissed. And somehow, a year ago, Speaker Pelosi said Biden didn't have the power. And now, somehow he does. This is pandering for votes and will be overturned by SCOTUS when it gets there.

You're overlooking that many companies indeed do require a degree for even "entry-level" positions. You're overlooking that many professions require a degree to even be considered for employment. IIRC, I stated earlier in the thread that's the case for teachers, nurses and other first responders, many law enforcement agencies (usually some amount of college credits or an AA), etc.

And loan forgiveness isn't just for college. It includes trade schools as well. It also includes about a third (IIRC, ~34%) of those that owe loans and never received a degree. It includes parents/guardians that took out the loans for their dependents. This is spread throughout the nation. Among Democrats and Republicans. How can it not when again, many of these jobs requiring degrees are everywhere? Are teachers, nurses, social workers, first-responders, and law enforcement only in Blue states/cities? Of course not.

As more and more people start to realize that they're eligible for debt relief, it will be harder and harder for the GOP to try to kill it. Especially from the very folk that received free money via PPP. I know some will yell and shout, yet secretly avail themselves of the relief. For those folks it's not about being helped. For too many the mentality is assistance for myself is okay. Just not for "those people!"

 

[ronntaylor]

I thought that the $125,000 cut off in salary was a little high, I was think more in the lines of 90k? My daughter's first job out of school was 45k as a starting salary, but that amount isn't a whole lot compared to what it was a decade back.

At least they are forgiving 20k for students who got a pell grant. Typically only given to those of lower income and greater financial needs like a single mother.

I just doubled-check a White House fact sheet: 87% of those projected to get relief earn under $75K/year. Among Pell Grant recipients, 94% are from families that earn $60K/year or less (hell, 66% earn $30K/year or less.)

$125K probably helps those with more advanced degrees like teachers and doctors that may be part of the public service programs and/or to help those in more expensive areas.

 

[Eric]

The White House Twitter thread calling out several Republicans, get them something for the burn.


https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1562916204011995136/

Click to see the entire list.

 

[Herdfan]

I've seen the right wing talking points and not a single one of them yet has acknowledged that students are also a part of the working class.

Wouldn't it be something if Republicans were as mad about children getting slaughtered as they were saving a poor college student $10K on their debt. Their outrage is selective.

That's the difference. We don't look at is as saving some poor college student $10K. We look at it as someone who couldn't afford college or already sacrificed to pay their loans back and other working class people as the ones footing the bill.

 

[Joe]

The White House Twitter with the receipts.

 

[GermanSuplex]

That's the difference. We don't look at is as saving some poor college student $10K. We look at it as someone who couldn't afford college or already sacrificed to pay their loans back and other working class people as the ones footing the bill.

We need priorities. Why are republicans upset about some rando getting a 10k or 20k break, but not some sitting congressman who is a millionaire with tax-exempt shell companies getting over 2 million dollars relief from the PPP?

Who exactly footed that bill, and many others like it?

 

[throAU]

As an Australian observer....

I think there are a lot of people getting hung up on this not being a 100% fix to the situation forever, and rejecting ANYTHING based on that.

Also a bunch of people whining that it isn't fair because they paid.

Well guess what, a bunch of people went to war and died, you didn't, life isn't always fair. And why shouldn't people try to make life better over time?

I'd say the US government has plenty of capacity to make education entirely free (the funds just need to be allocated correctly), clearing some student debt is a good start. No it doesn't fix the root cause of the problem, but it is at least doing something to help, which in the absence of a full solution is at least a help to some people right now. Having a better educated population is a good thing, society should be clamouring to ensure that happens as a priority rather than whining about it.

Better educated citizens will get better jobs/be more productive/pay more tax, I.e., government will get sufficient ROI on the education to pay for itself over time anyway.

This can be attended to in a phased approach, trying to solve it all in one go will be in political limbo forever.

 

[Joe]

It’s only ok when rich people get loans and free money. It’s socialism when it’s for you!

 

[GermanSuplex]

It’s only ok when rich people get loans and free money. It’s socialism when it’s for you!

We need to have new terms besides capitalism or socialism. The former seems to apply only to people being able to obtain unlimited wealth, the latter only when poor or working class pay taxes to help other poor or working class people.

We need a new term to describe the poor and working class subsidizing the wealthy and big corporations. I mean, we have phrases like "getting ****** in the ***" and "ripped the **** off", but we need something more palatable.

 

[Joe]

I have never been more convinced after this that Republicans all get their news from the same talking heads.

On every social media platform and forum, they’re saying the exact same things word for word. None of them have an original thought. And none of them ever have sources lol It’s always feelings

 

[Alli]

Too much emphasis is put on "college" as the only way to be successful. And it just isn't for everyone. I went to college with too many people who had no business there but went because they had been sold a lie. Sure if you are going into STEM or other field that requires and education, then yes. But to get a degree just because is not a great idea.

Agree . Not everyone should go to college. School districts used to put a trade school component into every system. Not so much today, although I see more of that locally since all the high schools have moved to “signature academies.” Many blue collar jobs will pay more than a job requiring a degree (or two), as evidenced by my husband (who has a hs diploma) earning a lot more than I ever did with a master’s degree.

 

[Joe]

I have no problem telling people they’re not college material or to lead them in another direction. At first they’re offended until I explain to them why I feel like that.

 

[Deleted member 215]

I actually couldn't disagree more with @Herdfan here about STEM and the function of education. I want college to go back to being about education and not a "job factory". Some time down the line we convinced everyone that if they wanted to be middle class or higher, they had to go to college, and loans were the way for people who didn't have the means to attend (hence the current problem). Older generations also frequently fail to appreciate the fact that the cost of tuition has risen exponentially since they attended, far outpacing wages. I'm all for going back to the days when you could buy a home in a suburb with a picket fence and start a family on a high school education. But that also means going back to a time when people studied philosophy, classics, Latin, and history for its own sake and weren't thinking only of "how can this get me more money". Employers also need to stop requiring a degree for jobs that really don't need one.

 

[ronntaylor]

I actually couldn't disagree more with @Herdfan here about STEM and the function of education. I want college to go back to being about education and not a "job factory". Some time down the line we convinced everyone that if they wanted to be middle class or higher, they had to go to college, and loans were the way for people who didn't have the means to attend (hence the current problem). Older generations also frequently fail to appreciate the fact that the cost of tuition has risen exponentially since they attended, far outpacing wages. I'm all for going back to the days when you could buy a home in a suburb with a picket fence and start a family on a high school education. But that also means going back to a time when people studied philosophy, classics, Latin, and history for its own sake and weren't thinking only of "how can this get me more money". Employers also need to stop requiring a degree for jobs that really don't need one.

All of this. It's the requirement of a degree that has forced many to go to college. So many jobs absolutely require a degree, even for so-called entry level jobs. The requirements and duties are overwhelming, while the pay is, to be brutally frank, shitty.

It's easy to say everyone doesn't need a college degree if you ignore the above. Fact: not everyone goes to college. Student loans are also for cosmetologists, HVAC pros, and other blue collar jobseekers. Many jobs require college credit or AAs.

Teachers need a minimum of a BA, with a good portion needing to eventually earn a Master's. Teacher pay is too often a joke. Since the Great Recession I've read heartbreaking stories of teachers working service jobs to make ends meet. Selling blood to make ends meet. It's one of the biggest reasons for the current teacher shortage. A shortage that predates The Pandemic.

And all of this talk about not everyone needs a degree overlooks reality: people are in need of relief now. There's no time for should haves, could haves nonsense. No loan should require an eternity to be "paid off." It's modern-day peonage.

 

[Joe]

All of this. It's the requirement of a degree that has forced many to go to college. So many jobs absolutely require a degree, even for so-called entry level jobs. The requirements and duties are overwhelming, while the pay is, to be brutally frank, shitty.

It's easy to say everyone doesn't need a college degree if you ignore the above. Fact: not everyone goes to college. Student loans are also for cosmetologists, HVAC pros, and other blue collar jobseekers. Many jobs require college credit or AAs.

Teachers need a minimum of a BA, with a good portion needing to eventually earn a Master's. Teacher pay is too often a joke. Since the Great Recession I've read heartbreaking stories of teachers working service jobs to make ends meet. Selling blood to make ends meet. It's one of the biggest reasons for the current teacher shortage. A shortage that predates The Pandemic.

And all of this talk about not everyone needs a degree overlooks reality: people are in need of relief now. There's no time for should haves, could haves nonsense. No loan should require an eternity to be "paid off." It's modern-day peonage.

When I was in college from 2000-2004 and working at a grocery I had a teacher working with me. He would work shifts after school was over. It’s crazy to me how shitty teachers get paid.

 

[throAU]

We need to have new terms besides capitalism or socialism. The former seems to apply only to people being able to obtain unlimited wealth, the latter only when poor or working class pay taxes to help other poor or working class people.

We need a new term to describe the poor and working class subsidizing the wealthy and big corporations. I mean, we have phrases like "getting ****** in the ***" and "ripped the **** off", but we need something more palatable.

Serfdom. It’s basically what you have. Swearing allegiance to the flag sounds like the oath of fealty.

Serfdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Yoused]

Serfdom. It’s basically what you have. Swearing allegiance to the flag sounds like the oath of fealty.

Serfdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have described our system as "feudocapitalism".

 

[GermanSuplex]

Ted Cruz then, promoting trickle-down:

“Indexing capital gains to inflation would unlock capital for investment, increase wages, create new jobs, and grow the economy, benefiting Americans across all income levels,” the letter said.

Ted Cruz now:

“If you are that slacker barista who wasted seven years in college … if you can get off the bong for a minute … it could drive up turnout.”

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1563273151575990272/

Ted Cruz: ‘Slacker Baristas’ With Student Loan Debt Will Save Dems In Midterms

The Texas Republican believes that President Biden‘s student-loan forgiveness plan will drive up turnout for this party come November.

www.thedailybeast.com

In essence, wealthy people really need to be able to keep as much money as possible by not paying taxes, loan and debt forgiveness for the wealthy or well-off is perfectly ok, but we really shouldn’t be helping working men and women with college debt with 10k or 20k forgiveness amounts.

I don’t know how many times I can say it, but fuck these people. I’m sure conservative baristas with college debt will probably just think Cruz is talking about other baristas with college debt though… the liberal ones.

I really wish Beto would have beaten this clown.