Today’s Shooting (an ongoing topic)

[lizkat]

That's the problem with hate crime laws, there has to be explicit actions/words/intent. And even then, if it's determined speech was spontaneous, it can be avoided.

So it's still possible to get shot at for just breathing or walking around with a different skin color.

But to be charged for shooting while hating someone over skin color, one has to say something at the time that someone else hears, or to have telegraphed in advance an intent to commit a hate crime (social media posts or journals etc.)?

Sounds like lady justice is holding the scales wrong to me. I'm all for due process but does that sound like a level playing field?

Further: why has this guy has been out and about since October although arrested at the scene and charged then with felony assault, but he's only due in court for arraignment Dec 12th? And they found 8 more guns and lots of ammo in his house the night of his arrest, and it might be a hate crime but in the meantime he's out on the street where it's so hard to buy another gun if you're short one /S. Did the victim have to quit breathing for this alleged perp to stay locked up until his arraignment?

This is some messed up country.

 

[Eric]

So it's still possible to get shot at for just breathing or walking around with a different skin color.

But to be charged for shooting while hating someone over skin color, one has to say something at the time that someone else hears, or to have telegraphed in advance an intent to commit a hate crime (social media posts or journals etc.)?

Sounds like lady justice is holding the scales wrong to me. I'm all for due process but does that sound like a level playing field?

Further: why has this guy has been out and about since October although arrested at the scene and charged then with felony assault, but he's only due in court for arraignment Dec 12th? And they found 8 more guns and lots of ammo in his house the night of his arrest, and it might be a hate crime but in the meantime he's out on the street where it's so hard to buy another gun if you're short one /S. Did the victim have to quit breathing for this alleged perp to stay locked up until his arraignment?

This is some messed up country.

Had that been a white kid walking down the street we wouldn't be having this conversation. Had Ahmaud Arbery been a white man jogging through that neighborhood he would be alive today. I would say at the very least the motive should have been questioned and if the shooter could not provide a valid reason, other than that victims skin color, for approaching him then it should be considered.

 

[bwinter88]

Had that been a white kid walking down the street we wouldn't be having this conversation. Had Ahmaud Arbery been a white man jogging through that neighborhood he would be alive today. I would say at the very least the motive should have been questioned and if the shooter could not provide a valid reason, other than that victims skin color, for approaching him then it should be considered.

Ignoring your use of "valid reason" here, how would this parse, legally? The defendant could make up anything and the jury would have to peer into his or her mind and take a best guess if they really meant it, and if not, boom, hate crime?

I'm all for justice for racists but this would be a weird distortion of our justice system. Convicting people by proving motive is basic principle, if you start convicting people based on lack of any other possible motive, our basis for justice starts looking pretty weak. The bar is high for a reason, to prevent unjust convictions, you would 100% get those if we adopted a "well there's no direct evidence but he must've" approach.

 

[Eric]

Ignoring your use of "valid reason" here, how would this parse, legally? The defendant could make up anything and the jury would have to peer into his or her mind and take a best guess if they really meant it, and if not, boom, hate crime?

I'm all for justice for racists but this would be a weird distortion of our justice system. Convicting people by proving motive is basic principle, if you start convicting people based on lack of any other possible motive, our basis for justice starts looking pretty weak. The bar is high for a reason, to prevent unjust convictions, you would 100% get those if we adopted a "well there's no direct evidence but he must've" approach.

Assuming you read the actual article, what would you consider a "valid reason" for taking a gun to a kid simply walking down the street is? is there precedent for him doing it with white people, or anyone else ever for that matter? This should all be taken into consideration.

 

[Eric]

Following up, it sounds like they are actually considering a hate crime in this instance.

San Jose man charged with shooting unarmed Black man renting Airbnb, DA says

The DA says the victim attempted to run to safety, but Waters shot him while his back was turned, seriously injuring his leg.

abc7news.com

SAN JOSE, Calif. (KGO) -- In Santa Clara County, a man is facing felony charges after the district attorney says he shot an unarmed Black man who was renting an Airbnb in his neighborhood.

Police are investigating potential hate crime allegations.

"Not every case of cross-racial violence is a hate crime," Legal Analyst Steven Clark weighed in.

The victim was seriously injured but survived. The shooting happened on Oct. 2, the DA filed the complaint against the suspect, 66-year-old Mark Henry Waters, who is white.

According to the DA, the victim was a 21-year-old Black man.

 

[lizkat]

I always think of the agony of parents having to talk to kids about the potentially terrible spinoffs of just looking different to people who "don't like" people who look different. Or the agony of parents who somehow didn't have "the conversation" and whose child ends up another victim of group hatred. They can end up feeling as if not having had those discussions somehow makes them complicit in the child's injury, death or wrongful trip to prison.

We are not meant to have to bury our children, not meant to see innocents fall to the hatred of others. Such terrible incidents in the USA are like any war of hatreds anywhere else in the world: preventable, and yet not prevented.

What does a parent think while cradling a black son born into a country where a white supremacist can elude justice after committing hate-fueled violence? Just a child's injury or death is unbearable. And if it was intentional and solely based on hatred of someone seeming "different?" Incomprehensible and terrifying, enraging.

Where is one supposed to take those feelings? How help make positive change when one has to get through such terrible anger to grief and acceptance of the loss, even to keep breathing, putting one foot in front of the other, not expecting to "get over it" but to launch a path forward again? Life beckons but it can be really hard to find the strength to follow sometimes. And yet, there is joy past sorrow, a thing that can't be chased but that settles in sometime like a summer afternoon.

I caught a clip of Trevor Noah's farewell monologue the other night, and from some gratitudes he expressed, I'd say that only way to understand how to get this country turned around on how its denizens relate to each other across "differences" is probably to spend time talking with some Black women. They've been dealing with this stuff since Adam and Eve and whoever that snake was in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Eric]

I always think of the agony of parents having to talk to kids about the potentially terrible spinoffs of just looking different to people who "don't like" people who look different. Or the agony of parents who somehow didn't have "the conversation" and whose child ends up another victim of group hatred. They can end up feeling as if not having had those discussions somehow makes them complicit in the child's injury, death or wrongful trip to prison.

We are not meant to have to bury our children, not meant to see innocents fall to the hatred of others. Such terrible incidents in the USA are like any war of hatreds anywhere else in the world: preventable, and yet not prevented.

What does a parent think while cradling a black son born into a country where a white supremacist can elude justice after committing hate-fueled violence? Just a child's injury or death is unbearable. And if it was intentional and solely based on hatred of someone seeming "different?" Incomprehensible and terrifying, enraging.

Where is one supposed to take those feelings? How help make positive change when one has to get through such terrible anger to grief and acceptance of the loss, even to keep breathing, putting one foot in front of the other, not expecting to "get over it" but to launch a path forward again? Life beckons but it can be really hard to find the strength to follow sometimes. And yet, there is joy past sorrow, a thing that can't be chased but that settles in sometime like a summer afternoon.

I caught a clip of Trevor Noah's farewell monologue the other night, and from some gratitudes he expressed, I'd say that only way to understand how to get this country turned around on how its denizens relate to each other across "differences" is probably to spend time talking with some Black women. They've been dealing with this stuff since Adam and Eve and whoever that snake was in the Garden of Eden.

Obama spoke about having "the talk" with his daughters to prepare them for such things as black people. Republicans of course eviscerated him but it's obviously (and sadly) necessary, even in this century.

A black person should be free to walk the street in any neighborhood without being targeted, all any of them are doing is simply trying to get from point A to point B but are regularly profiled because of the color of their skin and it's often by hostile right-wingers people or cops. I can't even scan my local NextDoor app without occasionally seeing something like "suspicious man walking down the the street.. Sex: Male - Color: Black" type of bullshit. In other words, a black man is walking down the street and it's automatically suspicious, if we don't call people on it and hold them accountable it will never change.

I'm not out to get anyone here but in cases like this it's heartening to hear that they're considering the hate crime aspect here, this man ran out there, confronted and shot this unarmed black person for no apparent reason. It HAS to be considered, they will scrub his social media and background to see if he has a history of racism and if so, charge him appropriately. It's the right thing to do.

 

[ronntaylor]

But to be charged for shooting while hating someone over skin color, one has to say something at the time that someone else hears, or to have telegraphed in advance an intent to commit a hate crime (social media posts or journals etc.)?

Well according to the logic of esteemed Supreme Court justice Coney Barrett, uttering a racial slur doesn't necessarily equate to racial bias.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Well according to the logic of esteemed Supreme Court justice Coney Barrett, uttering a racial slur doesn't necessarily equate to racial bias.

imagine how convenient that is.

 

[lizkat]

Well according to the logic of esteemed Supreme Court justice Coney Barrett, uttering a racial slur doesn't necessarily equate to racial bias.

imagine how convenient that is.

Sounds like a basket of pretzels to me, what could she possibly mean by that.

Only way it's not bias is if it's a kid copycatting a slur same as he'd copycat some string of curses, i.e, copying whatever his older brother just said, since it must be bad because his mama cuffed him one right after, so like a little kid everywhere he says it too, laughing, just to see what happens, and that's his first and only free pass (if he's lucky) because she tells him so instead of boxing his ears.

Since I don't see that scenario going down in a SCOTUS hearing, what the heck is w/ Barrett?

 

[ronntaylor]

Since I don't see that scenario going down in a SCOTUS hearing, what the heck is w/ Barrett?

It's from one of her cases on the Circuit Court. I don't have the time to find it now, but it was brought up during her confirmation hearings for SCOTUS. IIRC, it was called the Smith case and involved workplace discrimination. The panel she was part of (and I believe the district court also ruled the same way?) the mere use of a racial slur by the complainant's supervisor wasn't enough to make the workplace a "hostile environment" and thus his case was tossed.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Sickening. Someone is going to prison for this, and it ain’t the kid.

Doesn’t even make the news these days with the never-ending circus in Washington.

6-year-old shoots teacher in Newport News, Virginia, police say | CNN

A 6-year-old boy is in police custody after he shot a teacher at Richneck Elementary School in Newport News, Virginia, Friday afternoon, Police Chief Steve Drew said in a news conference.

amp.cnn.com

 

[lizkat]

Doesn’t even make the news these days with the never-ending circus in Washington.

Well... a six year old firing a handgun at a teacher will make the news in teachers' circles.

 

[Eric]

Well... a six year old firing a handgun at a teacher will make the news in teachers' circles.

Until they give teachers the same protections as guns it will only get worse.

 

[SuperMatt]

An appeals court ruled that mass murder is protected by the U.S. Constitution.

Bump Stock Ban Struck Down By Federal Appeals Court

Donald Trump signed the ban in the wake of the Las Vegas mass shooting.

www.huffpost.com

The far right judiciary has done so much wiping of their asses with the constitution, it has become completely unrecognizable.

Thomas Jefferson wanted us all to have our own personal nuclear arsenals. That’s what the 2nd amendment really means.

Listen to the speed of these gunshots, and tell me that bump stocks should be legal.

Spoiler: Warning - Video of gun violence

 

[Yoused]

Listen to the speed of these gunshots, and tell me that bump stocks should be legal.

Nevermind the 30 round magazines. 2A never mentions magazines. My inclination would be to restrict firearms to 5 rounds hand-loaded.

 

[KingOfPain]

That would even rule out most revolvers and you‘d have to ban speed-loaders too.
I guess sticking to lever and bolt actions for rifles might help a lot, though.
(Although a lever action with pistol caliber can be operated pretty quickly.)

If you want to be really mean, then you could restrict the technology to the time when the second amendment was issued, i.e., muzzle loaders.

 

[Yoused]

If you want to be really mean, then you could restrict the technology to the time when the second amendment was issued, i.e., muzzle loaders.

It is not about "being mean", it is about getting this shit under control. I think we should mandate

Spoiler: non-fixed triggers

on all firearms, which would greatly improve all-around safety while being a minimal inconvenience.

 

[AG_PhamD]

An appeals court ruled that mass murder is protected by the U.S. Constitution.

Bump Stock Ban Struck Down By Federal Appeals Court

Donald Trump signed the ban in the wake of the Las Vegas mass shooting.

www.huffpost.com

The far right judiciary has done so much wiping of their asses with the constitution, it has become completely unrecognizable.

Thomas Jefferson wanted us all to have our own personal nuclear arsenals. That’s what the 2nd amendment really means.

Listen to the speed of these gunshots, and tell me that bump stocks should be legal.

Spoiler: Warning - Video of gun violence

Unfortunately whether they are legal or not, apparently such devices can be made quite easily at home. Bump stocks are not typically used in crimes, aside from the Las Vegas atrocity.

With that in mind, whether they’re legal or not probably won’t have much of any effect. That said, I completely agree they should be banned if only to make them less available and to discourage people from having them.

I believe there can be a healthier balance of laws to allow for gun ownership but also provide more oversight to keep them out of the hands of people who should not be in possession of them.

And while pistols are responsible for the vast majority of gun related crimes, homicides, and suicides, AR-15 style semi-auto “assault riffles” are clearly the weapon of choice in school shootings and other mass shootings. Therefore I think society needs to think deeply about the availability of such guns- like at a minimum increasing the minimum age (which frankly should be 25-25+ with all guns, but at least 21), requiring a special permit with a higher standard of assessment like as is the case with pistols in many places, etc. Banning them outright is an option too, I’m not entirely opposed to it given the use case of such guns. I don’t think that’s politically or practically feasible though.

Meanwhile, a 6 year old shoots his teacher. Thankfully despite serious injuries, the teacher has survived. I think there’s some parents who need to have their children removed and possibly be considered being charged with accessory to attempted murder or whatever the charge is. People need to be held accountable to the highest degree when they do not secure their weapons.

Teacher shot by 6-year-old known as devoted to students

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — The Virginia teacher who authorities say was shot by a 6-year-old student is known as a hard-working educator who is devoted to her students and enthusiastic about the profession that runs in her family, according to fellow teachers and city officials.

apnews.com

 

[Huntn]

The problem with our Gun Culture, in response to having a water bottle thrown at your car (what did the driver do to aggravate the water bottle flinging driver?) after having a water bottle thrown at his car, the driver who pulls out his gun and wounds a girl in the back seat of the other car, this was ruled as justified force?? The water bottle instigator shoots back and wounds the other guys daughter sitting in his back seat!
WTF??? Are we now a country of idiots?? Both of these clowns should have been charged with reckless endangerment. This is where gun worship has taken us, where idiots think that gun fire is a justifiable response to any physical slight. Welcome to the new Wild West of America.

Dads Shoot Each Other's Daughters in Road Rage Incident, Only One Is Charged With Attempted Murder

Two fathers got into a shootout during a "cat and mouse" road rage incident that left each of their daughter's shot. Only one of the fathers was charged.

www.nbcmiami.com