Trans in Sports

[Eric]

All the locker room stuff aside, I think there's legitimate concern here. From a physiological standpoint men are built differently than women and I don't know that any specific hormone therapy can level that playing field, and anytime a transgendered person were to win it would always be questioned.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

If it were little kids, or even young teens, you are probably correct.

But when you get to the college level, or even elite HS, if you have trained extremely hard your entire life for something and see it taken away because someone switched genders and has a patently unfair advantage, it could be demoralizing.

And on top of it, the girls had to change and shower in front of a biological male in the locker room. That is wrong on many levels.

I don’t really follow sports and am probably one of the least competitive people you’ll ever meet. My interest in human achievement is usually of the creative variety much of which is being replaced or equaled by AI now. So if they start throwing military androids into the mix on the sporting field I’d probably have more to say about it.

I think American society is way too preoccupied with nudity and is mostly a concern because some have demanded that it should be and is by default offensive and a threat.

 

[Herdfan]

All the locker room stuff aside, I think there's legitimate concern here. From a physiological standpoint men are built differently than women and I don't know that any specific hormone therapy can level that playing field, and anytime a transgendered person were to win it would always be questioned.

Yes there is.

My daughter attended a swim meet every year where everyone swam in the same events. There were no age groups or genders and it was seeded solely on time. Now they did break it out for awards, but the actual swims were together.

Up till about age 10 or 12, the girls would beat most of the boys. There were a couple of reasons for this: 1) girls are more coachable at that age. They listen and can do what the coaches tell them. And 2) they have better control of their bodies. So when a coach tells them what to do, their brains can make their bodies do it better than boys.

After that, the boy's strength takes over and leaves the girls in their wake. There is simply no way to make it fair. Now if someone never went through puberty as a male, there might be room for a conversation, but otherwise, probably not.

So the question becomes who is going to be unfair to? Is it going to be unfair to the trans girl who wants to participate? Or is it going to be unfair to the biological girl who won't be able to win. Keep in mind, no one is being excluded, they are just being told they have to participate in a certain division.

I do wonder what will happen if a trans boy wants to participate in the boy's division. The rules regarding suits by gender are very specific and suits in the boys division can not go above the navel. Lord help me if I ever have to Ref a meet when that happens.

 

[Eric]

Yes there is.

My daughter attended a swim meet every year where everyone swam in the same events. There were no age groups or genders and it was seeded solely on time. Now they did break it out for awards, but the actual swims were together.

Up till about age 10 or 12, the girls would beat most of the boys. There were a couple of reasons for this: 1) girls are more coachable at that age. They listen and can do what the coaches tell them. And 2) they have better control of their bodies. So when a coach tells them what to do, their brains can make their bodies do it better than boys.

After that, the boy's strength takes over and leaves the girls in their wake. There is simply no way to make it fair. Now if someone never went through puberty as a male, there might be room for a conversation, but otherwise, probably not.

So the question becomes who is going to be unfair to? Is it going to be unfair to the trans girl who wants to participate? Or is it going to be unfair to the biological girl who won't be able to win. Keep in mind, no one is being excluded, they are just being told they have to participate in a certain division.

I do wonder what will happen if a trans boy wants to participate in the boy's division. The rules regarding suits by gender are very specific and suits in the boys division can not go above the navel. Lord help me if I ever have to Ref a meet when that happens.

Would it be too weird to let them have their own division? Taking the politics out of this seems like the most equitable IMO.

 

[Cmaier]

Would it be too weird to let them have their own division? Taking the politics out of this seems like the most equitable IMO.

How many divisions do we have? Men, women, trans women, trans men, XXY, ….

 

[Herdfan]

Would it be too weird to let them have their own division? Taking the politics out of this seems like the most equitable IMO.

That depends. In swimming they could swim with the women or me and be scored separately. You never want a swimmer to swim alone.

How many divisions do we have? Men, women, trans women, trans men, XXY, ….

No, Open & Women.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Trans Teen Hatches Nefarious Plot To Undergo Years Of Medical Treatments And Counseling To Win At Swimming

STOCKTON, CA—Cackling as the steps of the dastardly plan crystallized in her mind, local trans teen Brie Chandler told reporters Tuesday that she had hatched a nefarious plot to undergo years of medical treatments and counseling to win at swimming. “It’s oh, so simple: several years of...

www.theonion.com

 

[Herdfan]

So what happens when you lose probably the most recognized trans woman on the planet when it comes to sports?

Caitlyn Jenner responds as trans teen finishes 2nd in Meet of Champions race in California: 'THIS IS WRONG!!!'

Caitlyn Jenner spoke out Sunday after a transgender teenager finished in second place at a California high school Meet of Champions race.

www.foxnews.com

Instead of focusing on the trans competitor, think about the girl who placed 4th and won't get to go to states.

 

[Eric]

So what happens when you lose probably the most recognized trans woman on the planet when it comes to sports?

Caitlyn Jenner responds as trans teen finishes 2nd in Meet of Champions race in California: 'THIS IS WRONG!!!'

Caitlyn Jenner spoke out Sunday after a transgender teenager finished in second place at a California high school Meet of Champions race.

www.foxnews.com

Instead of focusing on the trans competitor, think about the girl who placed 4th and won't get to go to states.

The fact that Caitlyn Jenner is coming out against trans people while wearing a dress is a different discussion. However, I don't believe anyone will have faith in these sanctioned events with the physiological differences. I don't think it's fair to judge them for what they wear or that there's any harm in drag shows, but in sports I think it will always be an issue.

 

[Herdfan]

but in sports I think it will always be an issue.

Because you are reasonable. But many of the activists aren't.

 

[Eric]

Because you are reasonable. But many of the activists aren't.

It's a touchy subject and I can see why, I think both sides have merit. In the end, at least for me, the biggest question is how they level the field physiologically, or is such a thing even possible? They should be able to compete though, I really don't have an answer.

 

[fooferdoggie]

The fact that Caitlyn Jenner is coming out against trans people while wearing a dress is a different discussion. However, I don't believe anyone will have faith in these sanctioned events with the physiological differences. I don't think it's fair to judge them for what they wear or that there's any harm in drag shows, but in sports I think it will always be an issue.

She is like the token trans person the right seem to find the token black person the token gay and so on. they all seem to hate the same people they are.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

On the subject of fairness, I heard about a recent study that determined in the world of female sports it isn’t the most talented who are getting the most attention, endorsements, and money. It’s the most attractive. Shock to nobody.

If I had to choose I think I’d rather have my daughter lose to a trans competitor opening up the mental justification possibility that being trans gave them an edge than finding out they are unattractive and therefore worth less to society no matter what their athletic skills are, especially in the hyper grifter influencer world we live in.

 

[Herdfan]

On the subject of fairness, I heard about a recent study that determined in the world of female sports it isn’t the most talented who are getting the most attention, endorsements, and money. It’s the most attractive. Shock to nobody.

That's just kind of how life works. There is a reason QB's are generally good looking guys. Back when they started playing PeeWee football, the good looking kid got to be QB, or if baseball, SS, or basketball, PG.

I am really surprised there haven't been protests against good looking people privilege.

 

[rdrr]

That's just kind of how life works. There is a reason QB's are generally good looking guys. Back when they started playing PeeWee football, the good looking kid got to be QB, or if baseball, SS, or basketball, PG.

I am really surprised there haven't been protests against good looking people privilege.

Explain Payton Manning...

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

That's just kind of how life works. There is a reason QB's are generally good looking guys. Back when they started playing PeeWee football, the good looking kid got to be QB, or if baseball, SS, or basketball, PG.

I am really surprised there haven't been protests against good looking people privilege.

I think the reason there isn't protests against good looking people privilege is because to do so is admitting you aren't attractive. That, and society has decided good looking people are just better people and deserve to be treated better. In exhange they aren't supposed to whine about it, "I'm too attractive to get a date!" garbage.

 

[Nycturne]

All the locker room stuff aside, I think there's legitimate concern here. From a physiological standpoint men are built differently than women and I don't know that any specific hormone therapy can level that playing field, and anytime a transgendered person were to win it would always be questioned.

Keep in mind those physiological differences come as a result of development driven by.... drumroll please... hormones. One of the few studies on the effect of hormonal transition unfortunately has a small sample size, but by using US military physical performance measurements they can at least have some sort of starting point. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

The easy bit that shows up here is that testosterone works fast. Trans men caught up with their cis peers right quick. Trans women did show a shrinking edge during the two year period that the study looked at. But there's a couple wrinkles here. First is that the sample size is small, leaving rather large error bars in the measurements, where both sample groups have error bars that overlap the control groups. Second, is the short window for the study, as there is a trend without a clear endpoint to the trend. A longer study is needed to determine where these people ultimately land in the long term. Third, when treatment starts also greatly determines the outcome, many of the physiological changes relevant here happen during puberty. Prior to puberty, outside of gonadal development differences in the womb, the physiological differences are quite muted.

So here's the thing, I'm left with a couple big concerns here. First is that forcing trans people to compete strictly on "what gonads we saw at birth" basis still isn't fair to women's sports if we account for the clear advantage testosterone confers in many sports. Nor is putting all trans people in one bucket, in a world were women's teams who perform consistently better in professional competition get underpaid, and less attention (which makes widespread concerns of "what about women's sports" ring a bit hollow). Second is that this underscores the other prong of the attack on trans rights to block the ability of trans people to access puberty blockers so they have time to make a more reasoned decision about which puberty they want. An approach that makes much of what the study above looked at moot for many, as more trans people would develop physiology more in line with the group they are transitioning to.

Ultimately, this is just one facet of a multi-faceted approach to restrict how trans people can exist in society. If you transition at all, you can't do X and Y. And if you transition as an adult, you can't do Z either. And you can't transition during puberty, so you still can't do Z. It's a double-bind, and of course trans people are going to be sick of the paternalistic nature of it all.

And this all I'll say on the subject.

 

[Herdfan]

So here's the thing, I'm left with a couple big concerns here. First is that forcing trans people to compete strictly on "what gonads we saw at birth" basis still isn't fair to women's sports if we account for the clear advantage testosterone confers in many sports. Nor is putting all trans people in one bucket, in a world were women's teams who perform consistently better in professional competition get underpaid, and less attention (which makes widespread concerns of "what about women's sports" ring a bit hollow).

Just because I don't watch women's basketball doesn't mean those who play are lesser athletes or they the games and competition are lesser because they get paid less. This is a direct function of revenue being brought in by that sport. Women's tennis players are paid equally, or at least in majors, as the men because people want to watch them. The WNBA TV ratings are much lower than the NBA. Hence, they are paid less. Simple economics, but it means just as much to those players.

Second is that this underscores the other prong of the attack on trans rights to block the ability of trans people to access puberty blockers so they have time to make a more reasoned decision about which puberty they want. An approach that makes much of what the study above looked at moot for many, as more trans people would develop physiology more in line with the group they are transitioning to.

My concern with this is helicopter parents. If a boy plays with a doll or a girl is a tomboy some of these parents will jump on the the bandwagon and declare their kid as trans when in fact they aren't. So what happens if the kid turns out to not be trans, they just messed up their development with puberty blockers.

I posted a comment on here in a thread about 15 year olds having gender reassignment surgery the hits came quick. Fortunately those posters are no longer here so hopefully a discussion can be had. I was called just about every name in the book, until I posted some links confirming it. Then those same posters no longer wanted to discuss it. It's easy to be for something you don't think is happening.

Ultimately, this is just one facet of a multi-faceted approach to restrict how trans people can exist in society. If you transition at all, you can't do X and Y. And if you transition as an adult, you can't do Z either. And you can't transition during puberty, so you still can't do Z. It's a double-bind, and of course trans people are going to be sick of the paternalistic nature of it all.

And this all I'll say on the subject.

Life isn't fair. Lot's of people can't do things they want to do because of physical limitations. This is really no different. No one is saying they can't do them, just that if they want to do them, they have to do them based on their biological sex.

 

[Eric]

I give you Utah.

 

[Citysnaps]

How many divisions do we have? Men, women, trans women, trans men, XXY, ….

Minotaurs could be making a comabck someday.